The SocialToo Blog - Latest Comments in Time to Take a Stand - Yes, We’re Ending the DMs

Re: Time to Take a Stand - Yes, We’re Ending the DMs

doruman — Fri, 04 Sep 2009 16:07:04 -0000

Many thanks for this detailed presentation and for this opportunity offered. I saw here few complaints about DM`s, but I can`t see what someone might expect from this place flooded by spam and not so easy to monitorize after a large number of followers.

I wrote this because a direct reply it`s more easy to verify for an entire day or more, even some don`t use other helpful tools for their Twitter account. In each profile you can click on your username and it`s simple to verify all replies, RT`s or mentions.

Each of us has his own opinion about DM, some people would like this option, but I think here are many other useful services to use. All the best for you!

Re: Time to Take a Stand - Yes, We’re Ending the DMs

Chris Watkins — Tue, 28 Jul 2009 12:59:28 -0000

I really appreciate you operating out of principle here.

I actually like some auto-dms, when they've told me a bit about who I'm following. That's a small minority though. It aggravates me that most auto-dms are either:
* spam
* a request to follow a link to a blog that may be the most fascinating thing I've ever seen, or more likely spam. I have another 20 emails to read, so get to the point, please.
* an uninformative "thank you." Sorry, who are you again? Tell me, I do want to know! Our organization gets 10 or so new followers a day, and we auto-follow most (excepting spammers filtered out by socialtoo) so i may not recognize you by name alone.

I used to use auto-dms myself, making them as informative and useful as I could. With the backlash they're getting (though only two people have directly said I shouldn't use them) I've turned them off, and rely on our account's bio and tweets to tell our story.

Re: Time to Take a Stand - Yes, We’re Ending the DMs

Jesse Stay — Fri, 10 Jul 2009 00:03:44 -0000

Tim, this post was 4 months ago. Our drop of this feature was not "all of a
sudden". Auto-DMs are simply not where we want to compete, and I'm
perfectly fine if other sites want to enter that arena and compete as such.
We won't be supporting nor condoning it though. We're an analytics and
anti-spam company - that's our main focus. Everything else revolves around
that.

Re: Time to Take a Stand - Yes, We’re Ending the DMs

sikis — Thu, 09 Jul 2009 19:19:19 -0000

above have alluded the auto messages to voicemail, answering machines, etc. I think it's broader than that. From a corporate perspective, and Jesse you mentioned being the CEO, you provide two very popular products and have a LARGE competition base consisting mainly of startups jockeying for position. All of a sudden, you drop one of your two main products for the sake of posterity

Re: Time to Take a Stand - Yes, We’re Ending the DMs

Marie — Fri, 13 Mar 2009 17:03:22 -0000

You say: "As CEO of SocialToo, I’m taking a stand against automated DMs, and hoping other sites that do this will do the same. With what used to be a useful tool, came too much abuse, and someone needs to put an end to it. Until we can come up with a better solution we’re going to put an end to it."

That's like kiling the baby because the water is muddy. Why is it that legitimate users always end up loosing because of a few abusers? If you can create and #endautdms user, can't you use that to SELECTIVELY withdraw autoDM priviledge to those "blacklisted" abusive users (after verification that they are indeed abusing, of course)?

And like another commenter said: It's a real shame when people get punished for saying "Thank you" and it's takes a lot of nerve to decide that "people don't pay attention" to those thank you messages. What is it? You are in people's minds? Or you think everyone thinks like you?

You say: "I think the issue is that so many people are doing this now that this has ended up becoming the only type of dm people get now." I say: you've got a lot of nerve! Did you go & check everyone? No, I don't think so.

See, I happen to WANT to thank those who follow me with an AutoDM that also tells them a bit about me (and no, I never put a URL into it, but what if I did? 140 caracters is hardly enough for an introduction!)

I also happen to READ all the AutoDM I receive, and what is (was) best is that it allowed me to decide whether I should block someone or not. THAT LEFT THE DECISION TO ME because you see, I'm not 5 y.o. to have someone else make decisions for me.

I'm SORRY you made that decision and I can't help but think that the only ones who could really complain about this were those with many thousands of followers. Now aren't those the exception on Twitter? And have you not transformed yourself into a police force for the mighty? hmmm Sure looks like it.

Too bad.

Re: Time to Take a Stand - Yes, We’re Ending the DMs

tkoss — Mon, 09 Mar 2009 10:46:26 -0000

I am surprised by all the DM hostility. Although is is just further proof that technology is ever changing. It used to be considered efficient to auto-follow (for me it still is, as I don't have time, or attention span, to absorb 10-20 new followers at a time.) I enjoy meeting people as I tweet. The auto DM's don't bother me at all.

Re: Time to Take a Stand - Yes, We’re Ending the DMs

David — Sun, 08 Mar 2009 19:31:12 -0000

if you use automated bill pay, are you really paying your bill?

Re: Time to Take a Stand - Yes, We’re Ending the DMs

Jim "Genuine" Turner — Sat, 07 Mar 2009 15:04:41 -0000

I will make sure this is also referenced in our show on Tuesday night Jesse. I hope everyone will come and enjoy our "Gaming of Twitter" show.

Re: Time to Take a Stand - Yes, We’re Ending the DMs

LeanneBoyd — Thu, 05 Mar 2009 13:01:11 -0000

Perhaps I am missing something. Auto following someone who follows you - for me, this amounts to not missing a follow. There have been times when I get the notice that someone has followed me... I go to their web site, I maybe follow a link... am thrilled to meet them.... and FORGET to go back and actually follow. So SocialToo solved that issue for me.

Auto follow = APPLE

Meanwhile, per your "old services" - Even if I forgot to follow, SocialToo already followed them back, and sent out a nice little note saying HELLO, I'm real, You will never get another DM because I care!

Auto-DM = ORANGE

I don't see where the two are related like you indicate. For those that are spamming the Auto-DM, I agree that it is not received well, and LIKE ALL SPAMMING, will negatively affect them.

As I indicated, I personally found that, with the DM that I chose, the way I worded it........ I had very positive feedback.

Like any tool, it is the intention and the implementation that impacts people. When the message is: I care ... how is that a negative thing? Overall, I've had a quick rise to almost 1700 followers in a truly short time. And it has been over one month that I actively went and sought out people to follow. All of this has been organic, for "half the life" of my Twitter experience. Some days it grows by 20-30 peeps. And that tickles me.

The unfollows, per your own tool, are FEW for "real" followers... sometimes a language thing (I don't do Portuguese and they don't do English) ... but most of them are the zapped accounts per Twitter. And some are ones I zapped because they unfollowed right after following.

Why has all of this become so obtuse? This almost feels like irate discussions over book banning/censorship.

What remains, for me: I like the daily stats.

I'm not using the auto-unfollow. I do that manually. Always have.

As for the auto-DM issue. I'm not looking, at this point, to replace it. Manual means will have to suffice. But don't take that wrongly. I really feel others here in this forum have hit the reality nail on the head :: auto-DM is no different than Voice Mail. What would your business be like without VM?

yikes.

Re: Time to Take a Stand - Yes, We’re Ending the DMs

Jesse Stay — Thu, 05 Mar 2009 12:35:26 -0000

Leanne, I'm sorry, but the majority of our users were asking for us to get
rid of auto-dm, not keep it. We did studies on this, and have proven stats
that support this. I would not be making this decision if that weren't the
case. The system was broken, and we're fixing it. For any service to offer
auto-follow and also auto-dm is contradictory. Enabling auto-follow so
others can communicate with you, then auto-dm to clutter up that
conversation doesn't make sense. You will see negative impact by continuing
this process, and we're going to be taking steps at SocialToo to make it
harder to follow people that do utilize this practice. I strongly recommend
against using the practice of auto-dms. It will be at the detriment to your
brand image.

Re: Time to Take a Stand - Yes, We’re Ending the DMs

Jesse Stay — Thu, 05 Mar 2009 12:31:10 -0000

Josh, the thing is it's not deeply divided. These are the popups of our day.
Marketers are mislead to love them, at the detriment of negative brand image
that far outweighs the benefits. Our stats and studies show that the strong
majority hate auto-dms, while the very small minority mislead marketers love
them, and just sending them more hurts each individual's brand image. I
built SocialToo to enhance communication and strengthen the social networks
you belong to. Auto-DMs just make communication harder and less-authentic.
Search around for "opt-out", or "dm", or "endautodm" and you'll see what I
mean. They're hated by most, with the exception of those that want to make
money off them, and even then I have yet to see a proven statistic that they
are actually effective.
You can keep sending auto-DMs through other services, but from here on out,
the users that utilize them will be negatively impacted. SocialToo's new
focus is on preventing spam, not encouraging it. We will be doing all we
can to do that.

Re: Time to Take a Stand - Yes, We’re Ending the DMs

LeanneBoyd — Thu, 05 Mar 2009 09:35:08 -0000

RP, Hannibal, App ... "If you dare," LOL! Just followed all 3 of you on Twitter!

I was dismayed to find this out, with the auto-DM being disabled. I SOOO agree that this should have, in the name of good business practice, been announced to "the group." So I email SocialToo and get a nice email sometime last night, come up here to read the Reezins Why.

You know? As with anything "written" on the Internet, even our short 140 char. bursts need to be written WELL. I initially was thrilled with SocialToo, for this very ability. Now that it's gone, I, too, wonder about the necessity of keeping the tool. I do like the daily update, to see mostly my unfollows. Very few frankly. Mostly the accounts that Twitter has zapped.

As an organizational tool, the auto DM allowed me to keep up, somewhat, with the Twitter avalanche. And in fact, the way I handled it, it allowed me an instant rapport with a lot of my new follows. Why? Because I CARE. I detest spam and would never use any of this type of tool to spam anybody.

I had several of my new follows go... Is that YOU? What, did you just write me? Wow, cool! ...... and further..... they would ask me what the tool was. INSTANT RAPPORT. It opened the door to real communication instantly. Not ALL of them, mind you.... but I quickly could see who it was that was open to real communication.

This was my DM:

Thanks for your follow, TWITTERNAME. I am real, not a Bot. This is the only 'auto' you'll receive. I care!

===> And it was the only DM. It was experimental, as I've not played with any of the other tools that offer things like this. I've only been twittering for just over 3 months. And it leaped into a monster! Now I too am asking: Is there another service that allows this, along with auto follow? This truly is the ONE tool I discovered that I could really use.

As for DM in general. On a VM, you hit DELETE. In the Inbox, you hit DELETE. Why is Twitter DM any different? Hit DELETE.

Other than that, I quite frankly also appreciate the DMs. It has allowed an instant view of that follower. Either they are in to spamming in general.... or it was a simple thank you that I appreciated.... or it offered a short insight into that follower that made me click over to see more.

I care.

Jesse. Old saying. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Oh, and the other one... "You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time." by Abraham Lincoln.

Insert the word "please" for "fool" ... ya just cannot please everyone all of the time. Although in the case of the autoDM, just leave the word "fool" in there. If you are SINCERE with your DM, most folks will see your sincerity and that you're not trying to fool anyone. Some people are just Eb Scrooge, and some are Daffy Duck, and some are Darth Vader.

The auto DM, for me, helped filter out the cartoon characters and in many instances, started an instant relationship.

Sorry, I think it's a mistake to eliminate this feature.

Leanne

Re: Time to Take a Stand - Yes, We’re Ending the DMs

Josh T. — Thu, 05 Mar 2009 05:09:25 -0000

It seems that this is an issue which is deeply divided on both sides. For sure, there seem to be more people in support of eradicating auto-DMs on this blog post, but I'm not entirely sure this is the right or best answer. Here are a few things to consider.

1. SPAM is defined as an un-solicited message. While Twitter seems to produce more of a grey area on the act of "opting in", we can probably assume for now that a "follow" fulfills that role. When someone opts to follow you, they have given you the right to send them a message (organic or automated).

2. Email auto-responders send a series of syndicated messages to thousands of people who have specifically given permission to receive said messages. The only catch is there has to be an easy way to unsubscribe with no questions asked. Twitter allows this function with the "unfollow" feature.

3. Shunning Auto-DMs while champion-ing Auto-Follows is contradictory. It gives an unfair advantage to one party over another. If I can automatically follow someone but they can't automatically respond to me, how is it fair?

4. This has been stated before, but I feel it worth clarifying. Sending Auto-DMs can never be completely eradicated. The internet provides way too many other options and it is a need that most certainly exists, much like those of us who use Aweber or GetResponse for non-SPAM purposes.

I have read the comments on this blog and I agree with a lot of you....on both sides. Here are my thoughts, in case they are helpful.

I personally came to Social Too because I liked the auto-response system for auto-follows. I really dug how there was a script that entered the follower's name. Haven't found that anywhere else. However, this function disappeared with no warning whatsoever within a couple of days after I signed up. I spent about 15 minutes trying to figure out where the heck it was. I finally gave up and went back to "TweetLater".

I can appreciate how you want to clean things up, but there are many services out there which offer auto-follow, auto-DM and several more options than SocialToo. While your cause is noble, your service is no longer competitive. What reason would I have to stay? Not trying to be nasty about it, but what would compel me to use Social Too over TweetLater aside from principle?

On the other side of the coin, I can relate to most Auto-DM's being pointless. I always look at them with a quick glance. They are all relatively the same. Kind of annoying, but I can't really complain too much because I did Auto-Follow them.

There is a script that can block Auto-Dms. Now that it exists, it always will, no matter how many people complain. If you stop offering it, people that need it will seek it out elsewhere. The same goes for Auto-DMs. Until they get added to the CAN-SPAM Act, people will seek out and use them for both good purposes and bad.

Many people above have alluded the auto messages to voicemail, answering machines, etc. I think it's broader than that. From a corporate perspective, and Jesse you mentioned being the CEO, you provide two very popular products and have a LARGE competition base consisting mainly of startups jockeying for position. All of a sudden, you drop one of your two main products for the sake of posterity....but no one else does. If this were any other business setting, what would be the most likely result?

Now, I have NO IDEA why I just sat here and wrote a novel on this subject, so I apologize for digressing.

I agree that Auto-DM's suck sometimes. They're stupid and pointless.

But I also agree that they have a proper use and ARE permission-based, thus not SPAM. Adding a link does NOT make it SPAM.

Not providing this option will eventually force people to find it elsewhere.

Honestly, I could take it or leave it, I really see it both ways. But I have the option everywhere else and don't believe taking a stand is the right action at this point.

Hopefully, you all will take these comments in the spirit of hearty discussion.

Re: Time to Take a Stand - Yes, We’re Ending the DMs

Amy — Wed, 04 Mar 2009 13:33:11 -0000

I am actually confused about twitter in general. I thought I added auto follow, but I don't think it is working. When I go to my twitter requests and try to click follow, it will not allow me to. I figured it would do it automatically, but I can't tell if it is. I got that tweeter deck and that is just more confusing. HELP!

Re: Time to Take a Stand - Yes, We’re Ending the DMs

Jesse Stay — Wed, 04 Mar 2009 12:53:27 -0000

Amy, us disabling the auto-DM should not have affected Twitter.com in any
way. Have you tried contacting Twitter support? Just FYI, we still offer
auto-follow - we won't get rid of that. We're just against the practice of
sending automatic direct messages to people on Twitter after follow.

Re: Time to Take a Stand - Yes, We’re Ending the DMs

Amy — Wed, 04 Mar 2009 12:49:01 -0000

I added auto dm to my twitter and now that you guys are not doing that anymore, for some reason, I am not able to click on hte follow others button and follow others. It is giving me an error message in some kind of symbol format I cannot read. Anyone know how to fix this. I need to be able to follow others asap. HELP!!

Re: Time to Take a Stand - Yes, We’re Ending the DMs

Jesse Stay — Tue, 03 Mar 2009 12:51:32 -0000

Don, I wish you'd reconsider. As I pointed out above, my studies show that
auto-dms do nothing for your followership, and are mostly ignored. In fact,
they will get you unfollowed. I know many people that stop following the
people that send auto-dms to their followers, and that will increase as the
problem gets worse. The step we're taking is an effort to lead our users to
do the right thing, which will give them the most opportunity for increased
followership and best results on the Social Networks they belong to.
auto-dming will get you unfollowed, plain and simple - I strongly recommend
against it.

Re: Time to Take a Stand - Yes, We’re Ending the DMs

Courtney Engle Robertson — Tue, 03 Mar 2009 11:23:33 -0000

Similar to the redirect to our Facebook profiles would be good. I give out my ClickToAdd link when actual conversation begins to happen - when we want to move beyond 140 characters to some other system, or if we share so many similar interests that we should be friends on other sites(flickr, digg, etc.) Being able to direct people at that page furthers connection on other platforms. not sure what else SocialToo has in the works, but it could be a good resource.

Re: Time to Take a Stand - Yes, We’re Ending the DMs

Don — Tue, 03 Mar 2009 11:12:12 -0000

I echo your thoughts App. I was invited to SocialToo because of it's ability to help me automate my responses to people that have followed me. This was a great feature and the only reason SocialToo was relevant for.

I'll vote with my feet.

Good Bye Social Too

Re: Time to Take a Stand - Yes, We’re Ending the DMs

RP — Mon, 02 Mar 2009 13:37:08 -0000

Bettter throw away your answering service and cancel your VM then

Re: Time to Take a Stand - Yes, We’re Ending the DMs

Shepy — Mon, 02 Mar 2009 13:33:33 -0000

I find them impersonal and pretty pointless, if i feel the need to thank someone then i will do it myself, not rely on an automated semi-thanks.

Re: Time to Take a Stand - Yes, We’re Ending the DMs

RP — Mon, 02 Mar 2009 13:18:13 -0000

Man app and hanibal I thought I was the only one.

The next thing that will be thrown out is your answering machine and you better X the Voice Message system ESPECIALLY if you invite someone to visit your website while they wait for you return call because that is SPAM.

Or better yet the elevator music and the little ads you hear while you are on hold are actually SPAM messages so you better cancel your service AND GOD FORBID that they have an AUTOMATED operator system that asks you to press 4 for this or that because that is so INSINCERE.

WTH while you are at it you might as well through out your TV because you didn’t opt in to commercials from the station when you bought it from Best Buy.

And just to make sure you send a message you better not visit any websites that sell advertising because you will be SPAMMED to death with banner ads.

What a supcalifragilisticinsecuresimpltonwayofthinking.

Hello - You have reached the offices of Social Media Experts Anonymous. Please leave a detailed message and we will return your call promptly. For more info about our services please visit us the web @ www. I can't tell you the address because it would be considered SPAM .com Thanks again for calling.

Twitter as great as it is only allows 160 characters to say something about yourself.

Who would have thought all the Social Media "Experts” would be “so long sighted” as to say HEY don’t use a Twitter Answering Service because it is to Insincere.

Oh what sure genius - I definitely want to buy your book now.

I wasn’t spamming anyone but I received a lot of meaningful extra traffic from AUTOMATED DM’s because it was a easy and convenient way for people to find more about me and my services and when I had time it was great way to quickly go back and find out more about people without having to visit every single because all the links where in one place.

I am with hanibal Jesse.

Taking a stand is one thing but IMNSHO the problem that people have with automated DM’s should have been taking up with twitter not your service.

It is literally impossible to reach out personally, to every single one you cybernetically bump into in a sincere amount of time, and anyone who suggests that you should or even could obviously doesn’t do realtime business and is spending why to much time socializing and way to little time net – “working.”

Anybody in here actually try to hold a meaningful business based chat with 160 characters? You end up telling someone to IM or email or call or something ANYWAY

You people sound like you have been brainwashed by the corporate geniuses at Linked In who thinks networking means you should only connect to people you KNOW or better yet who think self promotion is shameless.

LOL

WARNING

People who thought this great service was SPAM – do not read any further.

My name is Ryan E. Poole - I approve this message.

You can auto follow me @ http://www.twitter.com/powe...

If you dare ;)

P.S.

Anyone know of another service that still allows Auto DM's

Please DM me

ROTFLMBO

Re: Time to Take a Stand - Yes, We’re Ending the DMs

LauraH — Mon, 02 Mar 2009 11:24:24 -0000

For me, it amounts to spam when you follow some one in an effort to try to get autofollowers and then send them a message back thanking them for the follow when you have a turnaround of less than 5 minutes.

And how about being courteous by, after following some one, @ replying to some one based on something they said on Twitter? So if you see that I've talked about X-Files, say "@purplepopple I'm more a Mulder fan than Scully." If I'm asking about SEO, say "@purplepopple Feel your pain. Nothing I do improves traffic from Yahoo! :(" That is infinitely more courteous because it shows you're not just following me to improve your metrics, that I should follow you because there is a possibility of developing a relationship online that can help both of us, that we have a shared interest, that you're actually reading tweets of the people you're following and not just filtering your follow list.

Re: Time to Take a Stand - Yes, We’re Ending the DMs

LauraH — Mon, 02 Mar 2009 11:16:08 -0000

And if you follow some one who autofollows back, is that really meaningful in terms of the thanking? I've an account which autofollows people who follow me back and then I get "Thank you for the follow!" I'm guessing that they follow gaming is what they were trying for to begin with. There isn't an sincerity there and the Thank yous become even more annoying in those cases.

Re: Time to Take a Stand - Yes, We’re Ending the DMs

hannibal666 — Mon, 02 Mar 2009 09:59:17 -0000

Those *baka* who insincerely *fallow* as many as they can in order to get follow-back don't like auto-DMs. Thanx for supporting their insincerity and thinly masked ambitions for the spotlight and/or the pot of gold they mistakenly believe is at the end of the Twitter rainbow. Doh!

Auto-Dms can be an effective marketing and communication tool that enables strangers to take a *shallow* online relationship to the next level. Like a business card. Would u have us all burn our business cards too? Did u throw away your business cards when u wrote this blog? No? Why not?

I'm upset. If you want to build trust and a following, U don't just shut things down. Sucky business skills 101. U should have announced (high and low) a change to service... weeks ahead of the service change so users have time to consider their options. This change was done with a fruity note of facism... <g>

So it was for free. So it sucks to be me. Me helping U understand your own mistakes by coming at U with an honest, upfront comment- brings a small satisfaction. Hopefully, U don't repeat the same kind of mistakes in the future. And then U can thank me. :P

Obviously, there's technical reasons for your change of service. Of course, U won't discuss this publicly as this could undermine value U are trying to build for investors, angels and fans. I just thought to mention it so U know where I'm coming from, but I'll leave the technicals alone because I've been there and done that.

It's a pity that all your so-called entrepreneurial spirit didn't get you to see the obvious... innovations that would serve U, Twitter, and Twitter users. Allow me to spell it out for U:

1. Auto-DM as a paid Service. $100/annual subscription to keep out the riff raff and reduce the so-called spam. Again, if this is spam, I guess your mother calling u to say happy birthday is spam too.

2. Message folders in Social Too for organizing all the DMs: inbox and as many new, nameable folders as they like. Monthly email report on all folders, unread DMs, etc. Also part of the paid professional service.

Now U can make your millions and U can stop looking for a job... buy if you do make a million, all your base are belong to me. And your soul! :P

@hannibal666